LSA + Cinnamaldehyde (cinnamon essential oil)
I recently saw a post on another forum about the possibility of LSA forming adducts with several different aldehydes besides just acetaldehyde (which supposedly makes LSH). This got me thinking. AFOAF has been researching essential oils like crazy and found out that cinnamon bark essential oil contains a ton of aldehydes. If you look on the net you'll find some talk about a compound called LSH. This is supposedly an adduct made by mixing LSA with acetaldehyde. Commonly people use peppermint oil for this, or certain alcoholic beverages high in acetaldehyde. But what if you mixed cinnamon oil with LSA? It contains a ton of aldehydes, most notably cinnamaldehyde.
Rather then speculate on the subject, AFOAF just decided to give this combination a test drive.
He mixed the following at room temperature:
11 drops propylene glycol (278 mg)
6 drops cinnamon bark essential oil from (165 mg)
10 drops of the now black old LSA extract (485 mg of which about 357 micrograms is old LSA)
This was put into a size 000 capsule and vigorously shaken for 1 minute. It was then taken with a glass of water. Here is AFOAF's trip report as it is currently in progress:
T+0:25, the effects are VERY OBVIOUS, but light, and pleasant at this time. It has an acid feel but is unique. There are minor visuals present, stimulation, and a good mood. It is surprisingly more active than expected. There's good humor, a positive outlet felt. It's great so far.
T+0:30, it feels a bit intense. Was too much taken?
T+0:50, it feels smoother. There's a warm feeling in the body and mild but obvious visuals. It feels quite different from LSA or LSH. The warmth felt shows there's no vasoconstriction. This is interesting. It's smooth, with an obvious LSD-like effect, but so comfortable feeling.
This is a trip currently in progress. I will update this post a little later when I get more details from AFOAF.
Here's the rest of the report
T+5:00, the effects are a little weaker but not by much. There are still mild visuals, and mild psychedelic effects. All in all the experience was pleasant but very different than LSA, "LSH", or LSD. This is a unique combination. It seamed to peak after about 30 minutes and then very slowly fade from there. This is odd. LSA usually peaks after 3-4 hours, not 30 minutes. Something very dramatic changed for sure. I don't know what exactly happened. Maybe something like "lysergic acid cinnamic amide" was created? The experience did NOT feel like two separate drugs, but like that of a single drug.
Sex was enjoyable during the experience. Music was enhanced as well. It had some elements of the LSD experience, and some elements of the cinnamon oil experience. All throughout the experience the body felt warmer than usual. The mood was uplifted. There was not the slightest hint of sedation or lethargy from the LSA. It wasn't speedy like "LSH" either. It was very smooth. It's hard to explain. There was no hint of anxiety. The visuals were very obviously boosted. Mental psychedelic effects were not boosted, but were like those of LSD/LSH. The effects were actually felt about 5 minutes after taking the capsule, which is extremely fast. Never before did that happen with LSA/LSH. The cinnamon oil definitely changed the pharmacodynamics of the experience.
This sounds like a very promising mix. The question is, was a new compound created from LSA and cinnamaldehyde, in much the same way as is theorized with LSA and acetaldehyde? Or was this simply an interaction between LSA and cinnamaldehyde?
Here are the things that changed pretty dramatically in the test as compared to normal LSA:
* There was no sedation or lethargic feelings whatsoever.
* There was no vasoconstriction or coldness felt, but rather mild vasodilation and warmth was felt.
* The visuals were greatly enhanced.
* The mental effects were like that of "LSH" or LSD, and unlike those of LSA.
* The onset was about 5 minutes rather than 1-2 hours as is the case usually for LSA.
* The peak occurred at about 30 minutes rather than 3-4 hours as is the case usually with LSA.
* The overall effects were stronger than LSA is on its own.
These are pretty dramatic alterations in the LSA experience. My guess is that the LSA was altered by something in the cinnamon oil.
You'r posts are allways extremelly usefull :D
I hope this work cos peppermint - LSH has never worked for me, and vasoconstriction of LSA is allway a problem :^p
As soon as it stop raining in this city I will go for some seeds :D
The peppermint-LSH thing is iffy. I don't know why. Cinnamon oil seems to work every time. I think it’s because the aldehyde content in cinnamon oil is many times higher than what’s found in peppermint.
Also note that boiling point for Acetaldehyde is 20.2 C while Cinnamaldehyde is 248 C. Would probably help, in my mind, with making sure a successful reaction occurs.
The peppermint version works best using ice cold peppermint tea. Let the peppermint soak in the refrigerator in ice cold water overnight, strain, add the seeds, soak overnight again, strain. Don't use any heat at all. The boiling point of acetaldehyde being 20.2 C is the problem I think.
The cinnamon oil method works without the need for cold water. You need a lot of water though, at least 1 cup. Mix it good, in a blender, let it sit a few minutes, strain, then drink straight away.
They produce different LSA adducts. The peppermint should produce LSH, while the cinnamon is going to produce an adduct of LSA and cinnamaldehyde. I don’t know what the compound is actually called. It has different effects.
ok thanks :D When I tried the peppermint I did what you said, but simply didn't work... maybe it was too little peppermint or the peppermint was simply withot acetaldehyde.
I will try to add pure acetaldehyde someday but not now :P
You think that it will work with a dry exctract made with ethanol and mixed with the cinnamon oil will work?
The dose of cinnamon oil is the same "sweet spot" dose ("a dose large enough to feel mild euphoria and mild stimulation from it alone.") you mentioned with basil oil, or is absoutelly unrelated to CYP inhibition?
Can other CYP inhibitors make LSA more potent?
That's a good question josef I don't know but it reminds me, I know some say combining Pedicularis species; for instance; produces an effect greater than the sum of it's parts.
In other words, LS*Cinnemaldehyde adduct + LS*Acetaldehyde adduct may = 10x both in terms of potentcy/raw material and alter the experience.
This is only a hypothesis that could be tested by extracting from seed then mixing seperate batches of adducts; and only combining them at the last second; "Down the hatch" (where legal).
I believe other aldehydes are also being tested for suitability.
The oil is not for inhibition; if I'm not mistaken. It is used to modify the LS*.
Normally LSH is found in fresh seeds. It's said to break down easily into LSA and acetaldehyde after the seeds are picked. The reason being that acetaldehyde wants to boil away in warm weather, while the LSA portion doesn't, so the adduct ruptures and the acetaldehyde vaporizes away.
LSA is known to form adducts easily with aldehydes. This might be one reason why LSA trips can vary so much from person to person, because the LSA is mostly likely forming adducts right in the body after ingestion.
Like flickedbic said, the cinnamon bark oil has nothing to do with P450 enzyme inhibition. The theory is that cinnamaldehyde and LSA form an adduct, which is sort of like a salt, but not exactly. All of the atoms are still present so no real reaction takes place. The molecules simply stick together like magnets, forming 1 molecule containing all the atoms of the original 2 molecules. LSA+ cinnamaldehyde should be a very stable adduct because the boiling point of cinnamaldehyde is very high.
In SWIM's tests, this LSA+cinnamaldehyde adduct is more potent than LSH or LSA, so adjust the dosage down to 1/2 - 1/3 as much.
1/2 - 1/3 of the regular dose! o.O Is that being compared to LSH dosage or LSA? Cause LSH itself was more potent than LSA in SWIM's opinion. Either way, SWIM will definitely have to try this out time permitting.
It's at least twice as potent as LSA, maybe more. But it's so different. It's like comparing wine to coffee. It's too different to really say its X times stronger.
Is it possible to isolate the Lysergic Acid Cinnamaldehyde (LSC) from the oils? Can we turn it into a concentrated solid extract (in any form), or not?
This “Lysergic Acid Cinnamaldehyde (LSC)” or whatever you call it, must have different solubility from LSA. Is there a way to predict the solubility of this molecule?
I think you should be able to isolate it somehow.
I read about a guy who was going to try that on another forum but never got around to it.
LSA is very water soluble, am I right? Cinnamaldehyde is almost insoluble in water. Would this new compound not be somewhere between the two? I mean more water soluble than cinnamaldehyde and less water soluble than LSA?
I think it would no longer be an essential oil right?
Have you noticed if the cinnamaldehyde protects the LSA from the light, heat and oxygen??
It would be a good idea to add the cinnamaldehyde during the extraction??
The stability of products produced by cinnamaldehyde are generally very good compared to other aldehydes (especially acetaldehyde). The reaction product made from mixing lysergic acid amide (LSA) and cinnamaldehyde will absolutely be much more stable than the original lysergic acid hydroxyethylamide (LSH) present in the seeds.
I don’t believe LSH can react with cinnamaldehyde. Fresh seeds have more LSH (making them more psychedelic). In older seeds most of the LSH has broken down into acetaldehyde and lysergic acid amide (LSA), and the acetaldehyde has vaporized away. Such older seeds are pretty much void of LSH, and their effects are primarily sedating, and not very psychedelic, but these seeds still contain a lot of LSA.
LSA is not all that unstable, and can last up to a year in normal storage conditions. LSH is extremely unstable. CLSA (cinnamaldehyde+LSA) should be at least as stable as LSA, and probably more stable.
Older seeds should react better with cinnamaldehyde because they have more LSA. Fresh seeds contain more LSH and are probably not the best choice for this reaction, because I don’t think LSH can react with cinnamaldehyde, because it’s already paired with acetaldehyde.
LSA is an uninteresting sedative. LSA is proven to form compounds with aldehydes (LSH being the most common compound it forms in nature). So because there’s acetaldehyde naturally present in the human body some LSH will form in vivo from ingested LSA so LSA will have some psychedelic activity in some people. This will differ from person to person. Also other aldehydes are present in the human body and in the food we eat which can also form compounds with LSA. These other products are currently unknown, and may be responsible for some of the extremely unpleasant effects some people occasionally get from ingesting LSA.
Because there are all sorts of aldehydes present in the human body, and in the food we eat, it’s probably a good idea to affix LSA to an aldehyde prior to ingesting it, to ensure that LSA doesn’t form some unpleasant compound in vivo. I would recommend combining it with cinnamaldehyde rather than other aldehydes. Cinnamaldehyde is very low in toxicity and will form a beneficial phenethylamine-like tail on LSA which adds vasodilation effects, making it less toxic than LSH, I believe.
The LSH that can form from LSA in vivo from acetaldehyde naturally present in the human body is more psychedelic than LSA, it’s also a strong bronchoconstrictor, and much stronger vasoconstrictor, and more likely to cause anxiety and vasoconstriction related side effects such as muscle cramping.
CLSA doesn’t have the negative effects of LSH, and will not form other aldehyde complexes in vivo like LSA can. CLSA appears to have no noticeable vasoconstriction effects, and appears to have some vasodilation effects. With higher doses of CLSA, you don’t get cramping, bronchoconstriction, etc. It seems to be a safer form of LSA, and much safer than LSH in terms of side effects. In general though, CLSA is less like LSD than LSH is. So this can be a downside, or an upside, depending on your personal preference. In some ways CLSA is more like mescaline than LSD. This should be expected because of its phenethylamine-like tail.
So, would it be better to extract with cinnamaldehyde? I’m not sure. During extraction a lot of the LSH in the seeds is decomposed into LSA and acetaldehyde. As soon as the LSH decomposes into LSA, if there’s cinnamaldehyde present, the LSA should bond with it. If the new Cinnamaldehyde+LSA (CLSA) product is more stable than LSA is, and it probably is, then yes, it would likely be better to extract with cinnamaldehyde present during the extraction. There is one exception to this though. If CLSA is less water soluble than LSA, and you extract with water, your yield might drop.
Is CLSA more stable than LSA? Probably. It should have better protection from oxidation and probably be more heat stable. As for light sensitivity, I’m not sure.
I saw this new compounds being called lysergic acid phenethylamine elsewhere. It sounds great except for one thing: cinnamaldehyde converted to an amine isn’t exactly phenethylamine because the amine tail is one element longer, and has a double carbon bond in two positions. So while it looks like phenethylamine, it’s actually not, it’s more like cinnamylamine, but with a double carbon tail at the end connected to the terminating nitrogen. What is such a compound called? I cannot find it.
The name cinnamaldehyde lysergic acid amide is valid, but not so catchy. I am using CLSA as the abbreviation for this molecule. I don’t much like the sound of it. Lysergic acid cinnamylamine is more catchy, but not correct because cinnamylamine doesn’t have a double carbon bond like the amine form of cinnamaldehyde has.
I”ve seen LSC being used. This would be appropriate if the compound was in fact Lysergic acid cinnamylamine, but it’s not quite. What is the alkaloid version of cinnamaldehyde called? It’s not cinnamylamine because that lacks a double carbon bond on the tail, but is otherwise identical. I like using LSC more than CLSA. If I could only find the amine name for cinnamaldehyde, and it did start with a C, and it probably does, then LSC is perfect. LSC cannot stand for lysergic acid amide cinnamaldehyde because that name does not follow proper naming conventions. If using that form, it must be cinnamaldehyde lysergic acid amide, or CLSA, not the other way around.
I tried finding the name of the alkaloid form of cinnamaldehyde. I can't find it either. I wonder what it’s effects are?
I like the name LSC. I’m pretty sure the alkaloid form of cinnamaldehyde would have a name that starts with the letter C. All the other forms do: cinnamic acid, cinnamylamine, etc.
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